Vikram Bharati: Mở rộng Draper Startup House, Thách thức xây dựng nhóm toàn cầu & Thiết kế hệ sinh thái khởi nghiệp - E553

"It's about right timing, in the right place at the right time. But at the moment, we have about 15 startup houses around the world, and we're very active at the moment in South America. So we're doing a lot of programs in Argentina, and Chile, and Uruguay, and Brazil. And we're also very active in India—so we have two of our big startup houses: in Bangalore, which is like the tech hub of India, and Hyderabad, which is like the second tech hub. So we're very active there. And we just launched something in Korea. It's a great area, and I think that shows a lot of promise." - Vikram Bharati, founder of Draper Startup House

"And specific topics like math and science—I think a lot of those things are going to change. And I think their ability to... I think context is going to be very important—for them to put the world into a context and have a unique perspective. And I think this is happening today. You and I, and most people in the world, have access to the same information. So the input is pretty much the same. Everyone knows everything. And so the ability to have a unique perspective is going to be the key challenge. And so how do you have a unique perspective when we're all reading the same thing, watching the same thing, listening to the same thing, experiencing the same thing? And I think that's going to be the critical thing—at least for my kids." - Vikram Bharati, founder of Draper Startup House

"It's going to provide a lot more options to people. Yeah, you know—why can't there be a digital country where you say, 'Oh, incorporate your company in this digital country,' right? And now, that digital country is surely not recognized by other physical countries today. But is it possible in the future there'll be some sort of a recognition method by other countries to say, 'Oh, we're doing a trade agreement with this digital country—they have great mindshare, and they're providing us with scientific IP for curing cancer,' as an example. And we're selling them rice and bananas in return. I think that might happen. The possibility of that doesn't seem so weird to me." - Vikram Bharati, founder of Draper Startup House

Vikram Bharati, founder of Draper Startup House, and Jeremy Au talked about how the startup world has shifted since their last conversation. They explored how Draper Startup House has expanded across continents while wrestling with the challenge of scaling both physical spaces and community-driven programming. They discussed how remote and hybrid work are evolving post-pandemic, and how startups are adapting faster than large corporations. They also reflected on parenting and preparing the next generation for a fast-changing world, where original thinking and adaptability may matter more than credentials. Vikram also shared his growing interest in “digital nations,” a concept that could reshape how governments serve people and how individuals relate to borders and institutions.

1. Scaling Draper Startup House globally: Vikram shares that Draper Startup House has grown to 15 locations across South America, India, and Korea, focused on building startup communities in adventurous and underserved places.

2. Finding the right people as a challenge: The model combines real estate ("hardware") and startup programming ("software"), which requires local leaders who can do both—something that's tough to find consistently.

3. Remote work is here to stay: Vikram believes the post-pandemic world has made flexible work a permanent reality, especially for startups and global teams like his, which now span the US, Brazil, India, Portugal, and more.

4. Hybrid models work best: The trend he sees is a mix of in-person and remote work—typically two or three days in the office—which balances productivity and employee satisfaction.

5. Parenting in a changing world: Both Jeremy and Vikram reflect on raising young kids today, and how future success may depend more on adaptability and creativity than traditional credentials or schooling.

6. Unique perspectives come from unplugging: Vikram suggests that stepping outside the common information feed is one way to build original thinking—especially as everyone now consumes the same digital content.

7. Digital nations as the next frontier: Vikram outlines his interest in building “digital nations”—online systems that provide government-like services and community without being bound to geography, potentially expanding opportunity beyond borders.

(01:11) Jeremy Au: Hey, I'm really excited to have you on the show. It's been several years since you were last on the podcast and that was a great chance to like interview in person. It's been several years. Yeah, time flies. Time flies. Our kids both became older. 

(01:23) Vikram Bharati: I know. Yeah. Or we, I probably only had two kids when we started.

(01:27) Yeah, pretty much. Now I have three. So yeah. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. Nice studio. Congrats. 

(01:32) Jeremy Au: Yeah, it was very nicely done I think it was interesting because in the last episode that you discussed, you shared about your journey, like tracking through so many different countries in the world, setting up Draper Startup House and your vision behind that was inspired by this travel.

(01:45) And also you happened to meet your wife while traveling here to Singapore as well. So lots of fascinating bits in that episode. So check it out if you haven't. But of course, so much has happened over these past few years as well. So I want to catch up with you. 

(01:57) Vikram Bharati: Yeah. Thanks for inviting me back.

(01:59) And (02:00) I don't remember what exactly we talked about in our first episode, but yeah. Good to be here. 

(02:05) Jeremy Au: Yeah. So I think what's interesting is that. 

(02:08) Jeremy Au: We've obviously seen several planes of change that I've seen, but of course the first one of Draper Startup House continues to be growing and expanding.

(02:15) Could you share more about that? 

(02:17) Vikram Bharati: Yeah. Draper Startup House is a chain of sort of innovation hubs that is part of the Draper startup ecosystem, which I think in a way it's probably one of the oldest and one of the broadest startup ecosystems around the world because it's been around for such a long time.

(02:34) I think the Draper ecosystem is probably about 60, 70 years old in that sense. So it's been around for a long time and it's good to be part of this much larger umbrella. Yeah. And essentially we build startup societies around the world and we go to very adventurous places where there may not be a lot of activity and we try to spark some sort of community where people can come together and build companies.

(02:57) And so we have scoured the planet and we've gone (03:00) through all kinds of very interesting places and not all the time do they work out and a lot of places it's about right timing, the right place at the right time. But at the moment we have about 15 startup houses around the world, and we're very active at the moment in South America, so we're doing a lot of programs in Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, Brazil and we're also very active in India, so we have two of our big startup houses in Bangalore, which is like the tech hub of India, and Hyderabad, which is like the tech second tech hub.

(03:34) So we're very active there. And we just launched something in Korea, it's a great area. And I think that shows a lot of promise. So yeah, so we're experimenting and doing things all over the world. 

(03:45) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(03:46) Jeremy Au: And what do you think differentiates Draper Startup Houses that work versus those that don't work out?

(03:52) Vikram Bharati: Yeah. I think ultimately it always comes down to the team and the people who are doing it because the startup house concept (04:00) is a very challenging concept because we're merging physical world, which is buildings and real estate and operations with what we call like the software, which is really the culture and the programming and the education and the investments.

(04:17) So that's like the software and we're marrying the hardware and the software together and that's just a very difficult proposition because doing just the hardware itself, let's say if you were just running co-working space. That in itself is quite challenging and then running just a software, which is, running programs and investing that in itself is also difficult.

(04:38) Now marrying the two and then finding the people who can do both in some capacity. I think that's the biggest challenge. And so I would say if all, at some point we were doing things in 30 countries. And now we're in 15 countries, so we had to scale down in 15 countries. And the reason why it didn't work out in those places, it's really it's hard to find those people to do both.

(04:59) And (05:00) also you have to be very entrepreneurial. You'd be very adventurous to go to say, Kenya and do things in Africa, et cetera. So I think that's like the main challenge, but I think that's a challenge in every business. The second challenge I would say is just finding the right business model in, in different places.

(05:18) In some countries, some business models work better than others because they're, this environment is different. And some places, the government's a lot more active. So you can get support from that. In some places, corporates are very active. So just finding the right business model for the right city takes a bit of effort and trial and error. So I would say those two things are probably the biggest challenges. 

(05:41) Jeremy Au: And it's interesting because there's some similarities to Antler, right? Antler is also like building out these different programs, I would say I would say globally as well.

(05:50) Is there a way that you could be like compare and contrast? I'm sure you get that question. 

(05:53) Vikram Bharati: Yeah. So we actually work with Antler in various different places and they've done a great job of scaling like the, I (06:00) guess the venture accelerators and programs. We're very complimentary, but we're different because we have this physical component. Essentially, how Draper Startup House started was many years ago, I spent two years backpacking around the world and I fell in love with the idea of small communities and physical spaces.

(06:23) And so I wanted to build physical startup houses around the world and which would be very much real estate heavy. Yeah. So places for people to live and work and be under one roof. And so that's very real estate and operations heavy. And so we're essentially trying to build those out. And so that's very different from, just doing programming.

(06:43) The programs we do that through partnerships with Draper University, which is a start up school in San Mateo and people from all around the world come to San Mateo twice or three times a year and go through these Y Combinator type programs, but different, and (07:00) so we work with them to scale the programs around the world, but in terms of the physical stuff, no one really is doing that the way we're trying to do it.

(07:08) Jeremy Au: Exactly. 

(07:08) Jeremy Au: And I think what's interesting is that, there's this blend. Do you feel like this return to office, return to physicality, post pandemic, because I think there was a, obviously pandemic. Yeah. Physicality. Yeah. And then there was a bit of a revenge period where everyone was like partying very hard.

(07:25) And then, I don't know, I went through the burnout period. I was just like, I need to stay home. Yeah. And then now it's like maybe the new normal, I would say. But I'm just curious how you, how has Draper Startup House, how have you seen that in action? 

(07:36) Vikram Bharati: Oh I think It's definitely the genie's out of the bottle, in my opinion. I think it makes a lot more sense for people to have options of working remotely or at home and in the office. Mandating people to come back to the office as a full-time thing, five days a week or six days a week. I think that notion is, I think it's gone. And I, this is interesting 'cause right now there's a lot of conversation around this because it's (08:00) become quite political, but I, in my opinion, people need options because I just feel people are more productive when they have more options, especially with young kids and families. So what we're seeing is that the balance is somewhere in the middle where people can have the ability to work remotely as well as then going to an office.

(08:22) That combination of the three day or two day combination seems to be the combination that people want, are the ones that people are happy to. And I think it makes a lot of sense for companies to provide that sort of balance as opposed to be draconian to say it's all remote or all physical.

(08:41) Now, in my experience, personal experience. Because we're currently building a new company and our team is completely remote. We have people in in the East coast of the US. We have people from Brazil. We have people from India, Portugal. I'm based in Singapore and so we're all over the world. Someone is a Bangkok.

(08:59) (09:00) So I think that, that composition would not have been possible if we were mandated to be in an office and going back the old school way, and I clearly see the benefits and the downsides of this. The downsides are we're not able to be in one place at the same time and have that human interaction on a regular basis, but the upside is we can quickly put together a team, and you can have so many more options of hiring different types of people because Now you're not restricted to one city.

(09:31) So I, I think the upside beats the downside. And I personally prefer it that way. We're in your home studio. If we had to go into an office to do this would have been a very different thing. 

(09:42) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And I think, it's an interesting piece because I agree with you that it feels like for startups, it's almost a no brainer because you got to look for talent.

(09:50) They're pretty gratifying. And if you can't pay cash, you need to pay in flexibility. And everything we do on startup is digital anyway, so it feels like everybody is like (10:00) effectively, I would say actually fully remote, I would say effectively with some ability to get there from time to time. But it feels like the large companies are going the other way around, which is they're going to, mandating return to office, up to five days a week.

(10:12) So it feels I felt like it was going to be more of a bell curve, I would say, where more people are like hybrid in the middle, but it almost feels like it's almost bifurcated, right? Yeah. I don't know how you feel about that. 

(10:20) Vikram Bharati: I think the data is interesting to look at because you're right. There are some large companies that are in the headlines. If you look at Microsoft and Google, these are large companies or the U. S. government, that's like topical because it's in the news. This is such a small percentage of the global workforce. That even though they dominate the headlines, it doesn't necessarily reflect the realities of 90% of people who are in the workspace, right? Microsoft, Google, sure, big companies, and they have a lot of employees, but it's a very small fraction of all the companies in the world. I think if you talk to, the average company, (11:00) I think, They want to have this flexibility, so that's one. 

(11:03) And then, secondly, it would be interesting to see the productivity levels. Can you actually look at the real data and say people are more productive? Some say people are more productive in the office. Some say they're not. I haven't seen real data to prove or disprove this, but I have seen that people are just more happy having options in life, and I think that's a good indicator, in my opinion.

(11:26) Jeremy Au: Yeah, I agree with you about that. I think that, reminds me of what they said, right? Which is that, most companies were already outsourcing or offshoring their businesses. So there's a form of remote work, when you move a division to the Philippines or India for customer support.

(11:41) Also, there's a joke they always have, which is the executives are always remote anyway, because the executives have an accounting office supposedly, but they're traveling for work, they're traveling for office meetings at a client site. They're not in office anyway. 

(11:54) Vikram Bharati: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. And also, I guess the topical conversation now (12:00) is like automation of so many types of work that normally you would, someone would be in an office, doing stuff. But I think the automation of a lot of this stuff just means you're going to have fewer people doing it. So instead of 10 people working in a company, you may have two or three. And so it's going to be a lot more, I think, intellectual work, especially in startups as opposed to manual work.

(12:26) And so I think that's going to make a big difference in terms of the ability for people to not have to be physically in an office together. And so I, I think that's all going to change, but my, what I'm seeing around the world is people want to have options of being able to work remotely. And I just don't think that's going away because people, the people don't want it and people have people, you can force them, they'll leave and go to a different company. So what Google does and Microsoft does, I don't think it's going to really bear on most people in the world. 

(12:59) Jeremy Au: (13:00) We both have kids right around, I have a four year old year and a two year old, I believe you had a six year old, a four year old, six, four and two.

(13:07) The generation alpha, which turns out to be just right for generation. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. So I was curious when they grow up, and I guess they're old enough, in their twenties and thirties and forties, what do you think that world or future of work looks like for them, from your perspective, if you 

(13:23) draw a straight line?

(13:24) Vikram Bharati: I think it's hard to say because things are moving so rapidly. I think there's going to be cycles of five year cycles where things are going to really change dramatically. So it's hard to predict what, my, my two year old is going to, what their work situation is going to be, when they're 20 years down the road, I suppose it's a little bit hard to say, but it's very clear that it's a lot of things are going to be automated.

(13:48) And I think the way they're going to stand out from the crowd is not their ability to do one specific task really well. I think they're going to be able to have to (14:00) do lots of different things and learn new things very quickly. So that, I think that adaptability, it's going to be the key to their success and that makes a huge difference in terms of what should they be learning today, versus what we learned when we were at age and specific topics like math and science.

(14:20) I think a lot of those things are going to change and I think their ability to, I think like context is going to be very important for them to put the world into a context and have a unique perspective. And I even this is happening today, you and I, and most people in the world have access to the same information.

(14:38) So the input is pretty much gray. Everyone knows everything. And so the ability to have a unique perspective. Is going to be the key challenge. And so like, how do you have a unique perspective when we're all reading the same thing, watching the same thing, listening to the same thing, experiencing the same (15:00) thing?

(15:00) And I think that's going to be the critical thing, at least for my kids, like what can I do for them so that they can have their own unique perspectives of things. How do you do that? I'm not sure. I don't know. You maybe you have some ideas on that. I'm 

(15:15) Jeremy Au: still figuring it out as well. I think that, I look at the future.

(15:18) I think one thing that jumped out at me is I think that I think I'll learn differently from the way I did. Because in my day, I was very lucky because I had access to libraries in Singapore. And my parents were happy to buy me books and encyclopedias. And, I have know somebody who is in the Philippines. And for them, they don't have libraries. And they can't get access physical books where they're based on an island. And so basically we technically both have the internet today. But I'm just saying like the fact that I grew up had access to this stuff.

(15:47) Vikram Bharati: Yeah. 

(15:48) Jeremy Au: And I always tell people, I was like, I always remember that in, my school library, I didn't know how to tie a tie. So in a school library, there was a book on tying ties, which is such an esoteric piece of knowledge on how to tie a tie, but you just need that knowledge in order to (16:00) function in the business world at the time, which is me, not knowing how to tie a tie.

(16:03) And the gag was, I knew it because I could go to the library to get a book to read it and somebody else didn't have access to that book and so they couldn't read it. And so they didn't know how to tie time. They couldn't get a job in a business world because they can't pass an interview if they don't know how to do that. So I think I love what you just said, which is that I think the world today is like both of us now technically have mobile phones and both of us could use AI and I can tell like yesterday I didn't know how to cook something and I had to use ChatGPT and I was like, Oh, I have these seven ingredients, what recipe do I need to, what can I make out of it, right?

(16:33) Yeah, 

(16:34) Vikram Bharati: So interestingly, my thinking is if you want to have a unique perspective, different from the 10 people around you, maybe one of the ways to do that is to not have the same inputs as in don't plug into the same, the same world, like unplug. Completely unplugged from what everyone is consuming and you may not know exactly what's happening in the world because you're not plugged in.

(16:59) But then (17:00) again, that may be in a way to get unique perspectives because the inputs are different. So maybe that's one way. And to your point of having access to things as, when you're growing up. That's critical. And I agree. I think I am, the reason why we're sitting and talking together is because I had access to books when I was growing up and I think that made a big difference.

(17:23) And interestingly, though, even though we're saying that everyone has a smartphone now, not everyone taps into the same knowledge base, if I look at the behaviors of say, the working, the people working in the buildings, right? If you look at the phones are there, what are they watching? They're probably watching a lot of entertainment because I like entertainment too, but maybe we tap into some more educational stuff, right? But yeah, I think I think that's going to be the challenge for my kids is how do I give them unique perspectives? And maybe one of the ways is, I think they just need a lot of exposure to as much as possible, as many things as (18:00) possible, as many places as possible.

(18:02) Maybe that gives them an edge or an advantage. I don't think it's really going to be what schools they go to, which is, I think it's an older notion. I think credentials are probably not going to be the thing. What clubs you belong to, what credentials you have, what schools you went to, your affiliations. I think none of those things are really going to give you an edge. In my opinion, I think what's going to give them an edge is, can they come up with new ideas and creative ideas that's unique? Because if they can, then they have, they can sell that to the whole world because everyone's willing to buy things that are uniquely different. But yeah, I think they're going to live in a very different world than we do. 

(18:41) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And I think I like the idea of unplugging, obviously that's something I always think of myself. And I was reading this story about these old Christian hermits who just build a tower and live in a tower. And then the rest of society would just continue being like trading and selling bread and stuff. And then there'd be a hermit on a tower, isolated (19:00) and obviously praying to heaven and God. And then, and then people would respect them for being so disconnected from, civic life. The idea of unplugging just feels like an impossibility. It feels I think if you truly unplugged, that would be something that people are like, wow, what is it like for this person to live without AI in their life? 

(19:16) Vikram Bharati: But there are, I guess there are still communities out in the world that are not plugged in.

(19:21) Jeremy Au: And we watch them on documentary. We watch them on documentary. Yeah, exactly. So it's like there's these uncontacted tribes and Amazon, all these islands and we use satellite imagery to look at the huts and they're like, wow, these folks are still hunting with bow and arrow. They see a helicopters and planes go by very far away.

(19:37) They don't know about the internet. They don't know about AI. I don't know. This feels like a tricky bit. And I'm just curious about how that all plays out. So flash forward, right? 30 years. Yeah. Yeah. Mid thirties by then. So AI is much better right now. AI is the best pianist. The best, essay writer for sure. The best memo writer self driving cars. Nobody, all cars are self driving by then. Yeah. (20:00) So why do you do this? What? Be therapists to one another? High EQ listeners and podcast hosts to each other? 

(20:07) Vikram Bharati: I think podcast is, I think it's going to be amazing, I think in 30 years from now. Because it's such a human thing and people like to listen to other people. I think ultimately, the whole output of humans, it's just increasing in terms of ability. And I think that's just going to get wider and wider. If we look at the world in today's context, where what's the GDP of the world, is it 300 trillion, something, at least the assets of the world, right?

(20:34) That this is, it's peanuts compared to what it's going to be 30 years from now. The output of humans in terms of productivity and innovation is just going to be so much bigger that when we think about 30 years, we think from today's context of what the output is today, but I think the output is going to be so much more in 30 years from now, I think it's going to be space travel.

(20:55) That, that creates a whole new sphere of possibilities. So (21:00) I don't think our kids are going to be living in today's output. They're going to be living in maybe 20, 30x of the output of today's context. The tide is going to be so much bigger that it's actually hard to imagine that from today's perspective.

(21:17) My parents they have a hard time sometimes understanding fully understanding the world that we live in today, because it's not something they would have imagined. And so I don't think we can really imagine. 

(21:31) Vikram Bharati: And the reason why I think that is because there's constraints in today's world that are going to be removed.

(21:37) And once these constraints get removed, the possibilities are essentially endless. And I think the scale of that is hard to imagine. 

(21:46) Jeremy Au: What are those constraints? Is it like what I know you're working on digital nations. Is that constraint? What are the constraints that you're talking about? 

(21:52) Vikram Bharati: I think the main constraint that interests me in trying to understand is how we organize humans.

(21:59) (22:00) And I think that's the biggest constraint. And ultimately, it's the humans who are going to create these new possibilities. The way humans are being organized today, I feel that's a huge constraint and it's a constraint that may not exist 30, 40, 50 years from now. So what do I mean by that?

(22:19) Ultimately organizing humans is probably the most foundational, form to endless possibilities. And the way humans are being organized today is done in a very analog way. So we think about analog versus digital. At some point, we were sending birds to go send messages, right? But now that's not the case, right?

(22:41) At some point we were, we were doing plays, people were doing puppet shows for entertainment, but that's not the case. So that analog to digital transformation has happened in every single industry except in how we organize humans, which is, in essence like (23:00) governments and nations. That's how we essentially organize humans.

(23:03) And that's a very analog system because we're putting people in borders and we're saying these borders is how people are organized and I feel that's going to change. And once that changes and that becomes a lot more non analog, then the capacity of humans to create, we'll just increase exponentially that I don't think we can fathom possibilities of that.

(23:27) Jeremy Au: Let me take the counter conservative view, right? So what's wrong with our current way of organizing people, right? Maybe the Confucian way, it's like there's individual, there's the family, then there's your village, then there's your town, there's your city, then there's your country.

(23:41) And then, that's the packing order in one way. So what's wrong with this way of organizing? 

(23:46) Vikram Bharati: Oh, there's nothing wrong. I think the way things get organized are the way things get organized based on a timeline of events in history. So there's nothing wrong with it. It's just like there was nothing wrong in (24:00) sending birds to send messages, there was nothing that was just the way it was, right? 

(24:04) Jeremy Au: Your constitutional government is the equivalent of sending birds to somebody else. 

(24:08) Vikram Bharati: Yeah, until a better way came about. 

(24:11) Jeremy Au: What was the better way? 

(24:12) Vikram Bharati: Okay, so I don't know the answers, but I think this is a topic that's very interesting to me.

(24:18) And this is the topic that I am now dedicating a lot of my time in unpacking and trying to build a company around it, which is. So this is not a moral view, this is purely just an observation of how can you do things better. Historically, there was no notion of nations and countries.

(24:35) It didn't exist. It was the Confucius way. It was your family, it was your tribe, it was your community. It was, right? That's how the world was organized. Yeah. It was kings and queens and kingdoms. Many kingdoms and dynasties. So that's how the world was organized. That's how humans were organized.

(24:53) And that was the case for most of humanity. And up until maybe a few hundred years ago, where we (25:00) changed that notion from local to very global. And a lot of this happened after World War II, after World War I. Nation started popping out with sovereignty, et cetera, right? And that's just a timeline of human history.

(25:13) But if you look at the key components, 80% of government services can be done digitally. When we live in Singapore, I would say taxes, licenses pensions, you think most government services, it's all digital. Identities, it's all digital. So if 80 percent of government services today can be done digitally, then the idea that we have physical constraints is like the software is great, but the hardware is like terrible. It isn't fit for the hardware. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's not very efficient in the sense that today's construct is it's where you were born. That's a construct. If you were born in X place, then if this place is a great country, then your opportunities are probably great. But if you're arbitrarily born into a place (26:00) where it's not so great, then your lot in life is probably not going to be so great. So that's the construct today. But if government services can be done digitally, why do we have these physical constraints, right? So that's the general thinking. That maybe in the future, it's not about where you were born, but it's about meritocracy.

(26:18) Oh, you're really good at something. And so maybe your lot in life should be based on that as opposed to, "Oh, I was born in Zimbabwe," versus "I was born in Spain, right?" These are arbitrary things that we have no control over. So that's today's construct. And my thinking is that's not a very efficient construct.

(26:37) And so can that change in the future? I think it can. 

(26:40) Jeremy Au: There are effectively digital nations. I would make an argument that are religion and to some extent people have some level of, affiliation to one another. I was bringing a history buff of the crusades and so the pope will call for crusades.

(26:53) And so there was an ability for it to defend itself, as a religion through call for holy (27:00) war, right? Yes. So taxation through the form of tithes, so that religion is a form of a digital nation, right? Or fellow believers separate from the geography. And again, there's an interesting dynamic where it was like, Germany versus Italy versus Spain versus Sicily.

(27:16) And then the people stay to some in the middle. And, this is interesting problem for the Middle Ages for that component. But it's curious how digitalization happening today? Because for me, I feel like nations require, and maybe that's my economist training, he requires a military, because, otherwise nations eat each other all the time because of military force. And because they eat each other, therefore they end up texting their citizens to build military force. So it's more like a survival mechanism where it becomes a nation rather than because of ideals, right? I'm just curious how you think about it. 

(27:50) Vikram Bharati: Yeah it's a good point because I think there's two it's a dichotomy in the sense that ultimately we're human animals and we are, we have very (28:00) basic human tendencies to take other people's stuff, and I don't think that human tendencies is going to change anytime soon. You have to defend against that. So that's surely just a human fact. And that's not changing. So there's that paradigm. And the other paradigm is that, we've gotten really good at trading with each other, and that's the way the world has prospered. So if you look at, if you look at the history of humanity and the curve of humanity's output, it was essentially flat for thousands of years, right? Like the GDP per capita was flat.

(28:34) And then all of a sudden it spikes up. And when does that happen, right? It happens when we started trading, like Industrial Revolution, 1800. We start trading and then the internet comes along. And so our ability to trade is what's made humans prosper. And I think that is the power of humans and that's going to only grow.

(28:55) And when I say trade, I don't necessarily mean just trading physical goods. (29:00) I'm trading digital goods, right? I provide you with insurance and you provide me with a currency and that's how we grow. If you look at today's construct, a lot of the trading is constrained because of physical geography. For instance, I'll give you a very concrete example.

(29:15) Let's look at pensions, right? A country collects taxes and then provides pensions. If that's a digital good, couldn't that be done outside of your, outside of your physical borders? It potentially could be, right? So that's a arbitrary constraint that we have put on ourselves and that could potentially go away in the future.

(29:34) Or let's say incorporation of companies, right? Singapore is really good at this. Anyone can come and incorporate. This is a digital thing, right? What if there's, that grows beyond our capacity today? Where a small, a small nation can say, hey, our legal system is really good. Come and incorporate here, put your money here and solve digitally done, right? So I think we're seeing that these physical constraints are slowly going (30:00) away, but it's nowhere near what it can be. So that's one example. Now in terms of, the human element of us trying to take other people's things, there are countries that have no armies.

(30:12) And so there's precedence now where you can be a country with no military and be able to defend yourself because of trade, right? You trade, but you protect us. We provide you with this, right? So I think that notion of countries and nationhood where it's nationalism and it's you need a military and I think that notion is getting blurry, look at the Vatican, right?

(30:36) The Vatican is a country within a country that's, and it's able to do a lot more than inside of the Vatican. So I just feel these physical constraints and constructs, once you start to peel away these things, then the productivity of the world will increase. So I think military is maybe not necessarily the thing that keeps you strong. It could be other things. 

(30:58) Jeremy Au: Yeah. I'm somebody who has done two years (31:00) of military service and I still go for my reservist training and I've seen several like global crisis happens in security during those times. So I'll probably say I'm a little bit more skeptical say because for me I'm just, I remember when I was training and I'm struggling and doing the obstacle course and then I remember the guy was like, you know shouting me to motivate me and he was like, it's like, "They're here to take your women. They're here to take your land. They're gonna take your money." It was like, so it's a very you know, I think was a way to egg us on to be more aggressive, if that makes sense. And obviously we're training not to invade another country, Singapore, but training to defend the country. So I think there's a defense mentality or recognition that there's some sort of like real politic or some threat of military force is always available.

(31:47) And I think Europe obviously not to get into geopolitics, but I think Europe is going through the issue now where they've had way too much focus on peace and not enough preparation for security, right? 

(31:55) Jeremy Au: So putting that aside, I'm just curious that, obviously, there's, there are (32:00) other, I think, digital nations exist, right?

(32:02) I would say to me, the ones that jump out mind would be your multinational corporations. And then the other one would be obviously the crypto world, I would say, right? Obviously the multinational corporations like Google the joke is that you're richer than over a hundred countries in the world.

(32:16) Vikram Bharati: I just look at Apple and you look at any of these large tech companies and their countries, right? Digital countries, and they have trade agreements with countries that they create special economic zones. Yeah. That's a great example of digital countries. Yeah. But besides the corporations, I would say in terms of like sovereignty of nations, right?

(32:35) I think we're biological beings and we're always going to need land to live on. Yeah. Okay. So that's not going away. So I don't think the idea of a digital country is there to replace the physical constraints. I think the idea of a digital country is there to remove the physical constraints by giving more options to people.

(32:54) And what do I mean by that is like you mentioned crypto and that's a great example, right? I (33:00) think digital countries are actually going to be a lot easier because we now have a new money, like a new globally recognized trading currency that no one controls, right? So if you have new money and money is always the thing that governments want to control, right?

(33:17) They want to protect their ability to print money. And so that's usually where you need guns. You need the guns to protect your currency in essence. And someone's created a new money that's completely not in the hands of any governments. If a new currency, a new money can be created, surely there could be new ways of organizing humans on the internet, which are based on, as you said, affiliations of religion and values. As opposed to an arbitrary notion of you're born here, so your lot in life is not terrible. All right. Maybe if you're born in Zimbabwe and that country sucks, you can maybe become a citizen of a digital country that provides you with government services.

(33:58) You don't necessarily have (34:00) to leave Zimbabwe, so I think it's digital countries will be augmenting the physical constraints. It's like, you have the landlines and the country said, screw the landlines. We're going up to the satellites. And so they, if everybody tried to go to the landlines, people wouldn't be connected.

(34:15) And the landlines exist and they will probably continue to exist, but some countries don't have landlines because they don't need it. They go, they went straight up at the satellite. So I think in a way we're going to have this physical borders, but we're going to have this new digital paradigm on top, which is gonna allow people who have the physical constraints to then trade more up here, in the way of organizing citizenship. And governance. And an example will be like, we already live in a border of the sword. Where interacting, communicating, trading, borderless. Yeah. So the notion of a borderless world is not a fantasy, it's the reality.

(34:54) We live in a borderless world. The only thing that's a constraint is the physical (35:00) notion of what a country is, what a nation is, or we need a military. Which is all in a way very true, but that organization method can actually go up in the cloud as well. 

(35:09) Jeremy Au: Let's go back to our kids, right? So let's say 30 years. What would that look like? They have two passports. One is their physical passport to a physical country. And there's another one digital passport to I don't know, E Utopia, yeah, for example. How would that shape up from your perspective, yeah? 

(35:26) Vikram Bharati: Firstly, Utopia I don't believe in Utopia. Yeah. And you've studied economics, you understand, if you're Utopia. Everyone wants utopia, but that's not the reality. Yeah. I didn't know what else to call it. I'm a student of like Austrian economics and the idea of utopia is the way to ruin everything.

(35:44) Cause it doesn't really exist in that sense. But I think in my, 30, 40 years from now, I think there's going to be thousands of digital countries because. You can anyone can create additional country, and I think these digital countries will fight for and compete for the mindshare of (36:00) humans, and they will provide to these humans wherever they may be tremendous incentives in the form of great health care, great insurance, great pensions, and they will fight for their mindshare, and I think humans will have become citizens of lots of countries that are digital in nature, and they're going to provide digital services, IP, mindshare to these digital countries, and these digital countries will provide them with incentives in the form of money, in the form of buying and selling of IP, and it's not going to replace where you were born, but it's going to provide a lot more options to people.

(36:39) Why can't there be a digital country where you say, Oh incorporate your company in this digital country, right? And now that digital country is surely not recognized by other physical countries today. But is it possible in the future? There'll be some sort of a recognition method by other countries to say, oh we're doing trade agreement with this digital country.

(36:59) They have a (37:00) great mindshare and they're providing us with scientific IP for curing cancer, as an example. And we are, we're selling them rice and bananas in return. I think that might happen. The possibility of that doesn't seem so weird to me. 

(37:16) Jeremy Au: Yeah, I think, I agree with you that there's always going to be some freedom of association of individuals, right?

(37:22) So today people can say, I represent Google, I'm friends with people who are on Google and Google definitely has power to negotiate deals with any government or anything. And every country in the world recognizes Google as a protected entity as a corporation, right? In that sense. Yeah.

(37:38) Jeremy Au: On that note, I'd love to wrap things up. Thank you so much for sharing. I think I got three big takeaways. Thanks for so much for sharing about obviously, Draper Startup House and how it's grown so much and what differentiate success versus those that need to back up. 

(37:51) Secondly, thanks so much for sharing about, the difference in the world between Generation Alpha, our kids' world that they're going to be in versus I think the world that we grew (38:00) up in and some of the struggles that we're still figuring out.

(38:03) And lastly, thanks so much for sharing about your passion for digital nations. And I think the ongoing debate and discovery that's going to happen as a result of it on that note. Thank you so much. 

(38:12) Vikram Bharati: Thanks. It's a lot of fun.