Anthea Ong: Saying No to Nominated Member of Parliament (At First), NMP Scheme Reforms & Majoritarian vs. Nonpartisanship - E564

"Actually, Malcolm Gladwell did a challenge many years ago for people to come up with a seven-word biography. So in seven words I cheated la so 'full-time' I hyphenated as one word and 'part-time' also hyphenated as one word. But I thought it kind of really described me, that I really want to never forget that I'm first a human before I'm anything else. And that also informs a lot of the work I do, the ideas I have, the things that I spend and give time to, right? And therefore also how I show up in my relationships, right? So that's kind of foregrounding who I am." - Anthea Ong, Former Parliamentarian & Leadership Speaker

"So what Well Leaders' rallying cry is, 'Be well to lead well' really wanting to bring the attention back to taking care of yourself before you can take good care of others and lead the organization to success. It's the same sort of notion as 'put on your oxygen mask first before you put on the oxygen mask for others.' And so we really want leaders to start making the change for themselves. I mean, it's going back to Gandhi's quote, right? 'Be the change you want to see in others.' So if you want to see better well-being in your people, you have to start with yourself, because you role model that and you also change the culture when you do that." - Anthea Ong, Former Parliamentarian & Leadership Speaker

"It's actually bringing CEOs together to stop thinking of workplace well-being or the well-being of your people as an HR responsibility it is not, right? It is actually the responsibility of every leader, and especially the CEO. It is an organisational well-being that you need to aspire towards and make that happen. I think enough study and we've just finished a study with NUS to show that organizational well-being contributes directly to organizational performance. In a time today where growth is a struggle, where there's so many macro challenges coming our way, we really cannot think of workplace well-being and employee well-being as secondary. It's very central to performance. It's very central to why we lead in the first place." - Anthea Ong, Former Parliamentarian & Leadership Speaker

Jeremy Au reconnects with Anthea Ong for a candid conversation on what it means to lead with integrity, empathy, and independence. They trace her journey from corporate leadership into the social sector and eventually into Parliament as a Nominated Member of Parliament (NMP). Anthea shares how she first declined the NMP role, then later accepted it after realizing that structural change especially around mental health and vulnerable communities required policy influence. She recounts her unconventional first speech in Parliament, starting with three collective breaths to bring mindfulness into the chamber. They discuss how debate still matters in a supermajority system, why recent mid-term resignations have damaged the credibility of the NMP scheme, and the need to rethink Singapore’s political structures in light of global democratic shifts. Anthea also talks about her current work leading WorkWell Leaders, a nonprofit that helps CEOs prioritize employee wellbeing and lead more sustainably.

1. Anthea declined the NMP role in 2011 but said yes in 2018 after realizing that structural change, not just grassroots work, was needed to support mental health and social equity.

2. Her nomination came through the National Volunteer and Philanthropy Centre, and she was selected despite thinking she had performed poorly in the final interview.

3. She made history by starting her first Parliament speech with a short breathing exercise to center presence bringing mindfulness into a space built for debate.

4. She used her platform to speak against discriminatory hiring practices, particularly those that asked job applicants to disclose mental health history.

5. She argued that even in a supermajority Parliament, debate still matters because it influences implementation, sets public tone, and archives dissent for future accountability.

6. She criticized the recent mid-term resignations of two NMPs who joined political parties, warning that it erodes public trust and turns the scheme into a talent pipeline.

7. Today, she leads WorkWell Leaders, where she works with over 80 companies to show how a CEO’s personal wellbeing is directly linked to employee health and business performance.

(00:00) Anthea: The future is no longer what it has been in the last 60 years, and therefore parliamentary system that has served us well. Do we not need to review? Right. Do we need not to, to have discussion? We are very good with coming up with something that's uniquely Singapore, just like the NMP scheme.

(00:18) Just like the NCNMP. Just like the GRC. 

(00:20) Because I saw that even with opposition parties in the majoritarian democracy, they will still stay in majority interests and dominant narratives.

(00:30) Welcome to Brave Learn from Southeast Asia's Best tech leaders build the future. Learn from our past, and stay human in between LBS unsu success. I'm Jeremy Ow, venture capitalist Sarah, founder Harvard MBA science fiction nerd and dad of two daughters. Every week we debate startup news, interview change makers, answer listener questions, and share personal insights.

(00:59) Join our (01:00) movement of over 40,000 members and get transcripts, resources, and community at www.bravesse.com. Stay well and stay brave.

(01:12) Jeremy Au: Hey, Anthea! Hey, Jeremy! Could I have you back on the show? Uh, the last time I had you on the show was back in the pandemic. It was an audio recording. 

(01:20) Anthea: yeah.

(01:20) You just started this podcast, right? 

(01:22) Jeremy Au: So time flies. We was just discussing, now I have two kids. Mm-hmm. So, a big change as well. 

(01:27) Anthea: World has also changed. 

(01:28) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And the world has changed a lot. I mean, a pandemic, a global trade war, and then obviously new elections. 

(01:33) Anthea: It's Literally five years because of it was like

(01:36) 2020 and earlier you were saying it's April. Yeah. Right? Effectively. Wow five years! 

(01:41) Jeremy Au: I know. Crazy. 

(01:42) Anthea: Yeah. 

(01:42) Jeremy Au: Yeah. And now at least we get to upgrade to a video conversation. That's right. And just talk because you know, I think it's always been fascinating because I always know you from the social entrepreneurship space,

(01:52) that's how we met, then you became a nominated member of Parliament. I did. And then you went through that whole experience during the pandemic. Yeah. And then now you're obviously building out new (02:00) initiatives on leadership but also you continue to be a really great writer on the Singapore electoral scene.

(02:05) Thank you. And so very much, as we kind of knew the Singapore elections are coming up, so It's a good time to do a refresher. Also talk about, the future as well. 

(02:12) Anthea: Yeah. Catch up, right? 

(02:13) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(02:13) Anthea: For the last five years and the last time we saw each other was still online.

(02:17) Jeremy Au: Yeah, exactly. 

(02:18) Anthea: Yeah. So, 

(02:18) Jeremy Au: please introduce yourself. 

(02:20) Anthea: You know, as I was saying to you, Jeremy, I just find that really hard. Maybe because I've been around the blog a little bit, you know, trying to just describe myself, I would just see that, people will introduce me, whether event organizers or when I write commentaries, they'll call me first and foremost.

(02:35) They tend to identify me as a former nominated member of Parliament, but also a social entrepreneur, which I certainly understand, given the sort of different initiatives, as you said. Social enterprises, community projects that I've very fortunate to be able to sort of start or co-found and then author because I published two books.

(02:54) 

(02:54) Jeremy Au: yeah. 

(02:54) Anthea: Um, and the third is it's in progress. Right. Um, (03:00) and what else do they call me? Um, coach, because I also, um, you know, do coaching. 

(03:05) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. 

(03:05) Anthea: Um, speaker. 

(03:07) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(03:07) Anthea: Public speaking. Do a lot of public speaking. 

(03:09) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(03:10) Anthea: So because of that, sometimes people will say, Hey, you know, but what's your full time job?

(03:14) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(03:14) Anthea: Always wanna know like what's a full-time job? 

(03:16) Jeremy Au: Last time you were a banker. 

(03:17) Anthea: It was much easier to say, right? Like, just say, what do you do? 

(03:20) Jeremy Au: I belong to this company. 

(03:21) Anthea: We are way in a time of the world where, you know, we are also multidimensional in our interests, in our engagement.

(03:30) It's really hard, you know? I mean, maybe a full-time job everyone that's majority of us still have. I don't. Um, so I say I'm a full-time human being and part-time doing everything else. 

(03:40) Jeremy Au: Sweet. Full time human being, that's a good Twitter biography. You know, that actually, yeah. 

(03:46) Anthea: Malcolm Gladwell did a challenge, three years ago. Yeah. Um, for people to come up with a seven-word biography. Oh. So in seven words, I cheated last. So full-time I hyphen, hyphenated it as a one word and part-time also hyphenated as one (04:00) word. But, um, I thought it kind of really described me that, um, you know, I really want to never forget

(04:07) that I'm first a human before I'm anything else. And that also informs a lot of the work I do, the ideas I have, um, the things that I spend and give time to. Mm-hmm. Right? Uh, and therefore also how I show up in my relationships, right? So, that's, that's kind of fore grounding. 

(04:24) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(04:24) Anthea: Who I am and then yeah

(04:25) I really part-time doing everything else like Hmm. Curious. Start this, start that, and you would definitely resonate, yeah, with the second part of part-time, everything else as an entrepreneur. 

(04:35) Jeremy Au: Yeah, I know for sure. Um, and so, you know, obviously, you know, check out the previous episode to talk about your past history as a bank, how you decided social impact space.

(04:44) That's correct. People who just got very curious and the reason why I double was to double click into like your experience as a nominated member of Parliament, right?

(04:50) And I obviously at that time was still like, you know, fresh and everything, but now I think obviously there's a bit more space to decompress and reflect.

(04:57) So I gotta go back into like the start of that (05:00) NMP journey, which is how in the world do you even become a nominated member of Parliament? This, like, you get like a letter from, from an owl that flies into your window, has a nice little, you know, wax seal that says you have been chosen to the nominated member of Parliament.

(05:15) How does that conversation start? Right. 

(05:16) Anthea: Um, actually, was first asked to consider being an NMP in 2011 just after the watershed election. Right. Yeah. Where, um, I think for the first time, PAP lost, the alternate GRC. And so I was asked, then I was still in the corporate sector.

(05:32) Mm-hmm. Um, and I said no. Although at the time I knew, but I had already been very involved in the social sector whether it was as a volunteer, sort of, you know, rolling on my sleeves or on the board. I think at the time I was still on the board of UN Women, what's called UN Women here in Singapore, um, and some of the other organizations like, uh, wings, you know, and all of that.

(05:54) Um, and so I was asked, I said no, because I knew I was giving myself another two years in the (06:00) corporate sector, and I will quit 

(06:01) Jeremy Au: the corporate 

(06:02) Anthea: sector to actually go into volunteerism, social entrepreneurship. 

(06:06) Jeremy Au: Right. 

(06:06) Anthea: Um, you know, full time. 

(06:08) Jeremy Au: Right, 

(06:08) Anthea: So I said, no, you know, I'm gonna make change on the ground.

(06:11) You know, politics is not for me. I just think that the change that I can make will be on the ground and all of that. Um, and then 2018, I was asked again. 

(06:20) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(06:20) Anthea: And so seven years had passed since my first invitation. Why did I say yes? 

(06:25) Jeremy Au: I, 

(06:25) Anthea: I realized that there was structural change that needed to be made for real change to happen, right?

(06:32) Mm-hmm. Because on the ground, yeah, a lot of great stuff are happening. 

(06:36) Jeremy Au: Right. 

(06:36) Anthea: But you, you hit the wall. Right. Um, sometimes, and in my case, it was not just. mental health is a big part of it. As you know, 

(06:43) Jeremy Au: I 

(06:43) Anthea: had my own personal brush with depression 20 years ago. So, mental health has been something that I've been really championing, um, to make, you know, a lot of changes within the system of healthcare, but also across a lot of policies, you know, in education, in workplace, and all of (07:00) that.

(07:00) Um, but also just generally looking at certain, uh, marginalized communities and vulnerable communities, and all that. So, then I realized actually you can do a lot of work, but if the policies don't change 

(07:11) Jeremy Au: right, then 

(07:11) Anthea: you will still hit a wall. And so I said, yes. 

(07:13) Jeremy Au: Yeah, 

(07:14) Anthea: I said yes only to, uh, the National Volunteer and Philanthropy Center wanting to nominate me as a potential candidate.

(07:21) But obviously I thought, I will just say yes. But this, you know, you don't know because the selection process is such that, um, you know, you have six functional sectors. Um, you know, my time there were 48 applications, and in our constitution, there are only nine NMPs in Parliament. 

(07:42) Jeremy Au: Right. 

(07:42) Anthea: I saw Jeremy, you know, you don't know how you're gonna actually end up being selected.

(07:47) I got to the last round of the in person interview with a special select committee. Right. And then I actually thought there's no way they would choose me because I did so poorly in the questions they asked. 

(07:57) Jeremy Au: Wait, how would you do poorly questions? Are they asking you (08:00) like a IQ question? Like, oh, how many golf laws?

(08:03) 

(08:03) Anthea: Legislation and all of that. And I thought I did do enough homework to understand the process of parliament. Yeah. You must remember by then. I mean, I was 50 years old, right?

(08:12) Yeah. I've been at C-Suite. I've been running teams and I've done a lot of interviews based on a very informed basis that I've done interviews of other people. I really thought I did poorly, But I was selected. 

(08:24) Jeremy Au: Why do you think you were selected?

(08:25) Anthea: So, up to that point, I clearly, uh, had gotten quite a bit of, um, attention with the work that I was doing in, um, the social entrepreneur, uh, ship scene. I started the social enterprise Chiba. 

(08:40) Jeremy Au: Right. 

(08:40) Anthea: Bringing together, um, the work integration model, which is usually the model of social enterprises, hiring and empowering, uh, people who are deaf and are hearing to lead silently experiences, right, in workplaces and schools

(08:55) really promoting mental health, wellbeing and also empathy. And then, um, the (09:00) hearing team were also people who were, uh, people in recovery from mental health conditions. So, it was seen as really quite, um, disruptive because I think after that point, social enterprises, I suspect we might still be the only one where the entire team was made up of, you know, people, uh, with different abilities and different needs, right?

(09:21) But yet we actually designed the entire social enterprise around, really truly empowering them. It wasn't just to hire them. 

(09:28) Jeremy Au: Right. 

(09:29) Anthea: It was to really empower them to be standing in front, you know? Uh, because it's a silent experience. Nobody needs to talk. In fact, they become the able ones and the participants become.

(09:39) The disabled ones. Right? Right. And so it was challenging a lot of the notion of disability and all of that. So that was, I think that could be part of why they saw, uh, that Wow, you know, there was a very sort of disruptive 

(09:52) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(09:52) Anthea: way of thinking about, uh, disability, social enterprises and all that. Um, I think the other was obviously my leadership, (10:00) uh, experience.

(10:01) Right. Um, being a C-suite, you know, up to then probably about 25 years of C-Suite experience. And even in the involvement in the social sector being the president of Wings, I helped to found Doctors of tomorrow. 

(10:15) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. 

(10:15) Anthea: Um, and was on the board of, you know, different, 

(10:18) Jeremy Au: um, 

(10:19) Anthea: charities and also national committees 

(10:21) And was also on the committee of the social sector innovation. 

(10:24) Jeremy Au: right. 

(10:24) Anthea: Um, panel. 

(10:25) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(10:26) Anthea: Um, but in my application form, fun fact, um, when asked or why, um, what would you say you bring to Parliament as an NMP that's unique and I actually said that, um, I'm a divorcee.

(10:40) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. 

(10:41) Anthea: I still live in a three-room HDB flat. 

(10:43) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. 

(10:43) Anthea: Um. Yeah. And I am unencumbered in the sense that I'm not actually working for anybody and therefore I don't have to worry whether it's gonna affect my business or, you know, if I'm still sort of teaching. Right. I will worry about whether I'm, you know, (11:00) within a university, I shouldn't say this or that,

(11:02) right? Yeah. Uh, and so the three things I said, I thought I'll be bringing quite unique perspectives. And also represent sort of, you know, a different thinking that I've been a leader, but I'm also in the HDB state. 

(11:14) Jeremy Au: No, I think that makes a lot of sense. And you know, frankly, knowing you from the social sector, you were like kind of like one level, but so you're not like two in one, if that makes sense.

(11:22) No, but I think you are good. Like, I don't know, arbiter, you know, like kind of like, you know, mutual representative, the whole social sector. Yeah. So I totally see 

(11:29) Anthea: it from a 

(11:30) Jeremy Au: representation perspective. 

(11:31) Anthea: Yeah. Right. Uh, it's so definitely, and, and I think also talking about this, thank you for saying that because actually it's so important to me. I mean, of course mental health cuts across all segments and all population, um, communities. Um, but people, you know, always kinda wonder like, 'oh, what, what do you stand for?'

(11:50) 'Cause you're so involved in different things, cats. You know, dogs, you know, like elderly and disability and mental health and, you know, sustainability because I'm very involved with climate (12:00) change and the green sector. Um, and all of that migrant workers as, you know, very big part of it,

(12:05) right? I'm very involved with that. But, I go back to the fulltime human. 

(12:09) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. 

(12:09) Anthea: Right. I mean, these are very sort of, um, human centered issues. But I also wanna say that part of it is, I don't know whether you agree with me, and maybe you do. I've always known myself to be a bit more of a horizontal than a specialist. And it actually pans out in the way my career has gone like I was very quickly more identified as a leader than some specialist within a certain department, but also that may have come from this tendency of being able to see systems. So I see systems, and maybe that's why being horizontal, I can see how all this connect. And the other thing is also, I mean, realistically, who lives a single issue life if you come from being a human. 

(12:48) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. 

(12:49) Anthea: Uh, I mean, no one lives a single issue life, right? So, if you go the other way around and think about humans and being person-centered, 

(12:56) Jeremy Au: Mm.

(12:57) Anthea: And even myself, I just use (13:00) myself as an example. I mean, geez, it just has been so, um, multidimensional. You know, it's just so crosscutting. So, I guess that's probably also another reason maybe that they saw how I was involved in so many different things. 

(13:14) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(13:14) Anthea: I mean, to your point about the representation, I guessed. 

(13:16) Jeremy Au: So, what was your first day of, you know, being a nominated member of Parliament? So, how did it inform you that you passed is like an email? 

(13:24) Anthea: That's a really good question. Actually, I remember it happening on a Monday. And the reason I remember, because every Monday is a half day digital detox in the morning. So, I don't read my phone, I don't read my emails. And then I came on at noon, usually I come online after, 12, and then I saw quite a few, emails, but also some messages on WhatsApp.

(13:46) And the reason is because the parliament was gonna make the announcement to media at three. And I've been trying to get hold of me the whole morning to see I've been selected. That's why I will not forget it even though it's such a while (14:00) back. 

(14:00) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(14:00) Anthea: Because it just happened to be on a Monday.

(14:03) Which means I wasn't actually online. 

(14:06) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(14:06) Anthea: And then when I came online, I saw all of this, didn't recognize the number, but saw the message. Uh oh. And then apparently, it was gonna go out to the public in terms of the press release, the media release, that afternoon at three or four something.

(14:19) And so really I only knew it for like, you know, an hour or so and it was like all over the newsletter essentially because of when I came back online. And which then got me like, because they then told us that, oh, media will be in touch and you're gonna be asked, you know, how do you feel?

(14:37) And this is all happening within a couple of hours. And 'cause I didn't have a day, like maybe the rest. Because they might have already received it much earlier than what they did, obviously. So, they had to sort of organize my thoughts around what I'm gonna say.

(14:49) The good thing is that the application, they ask you already some of those questions, so it is more of just sort of bring that back up by articulating it more succinctly because, you know, like (15:00) the application line, like you go to university like long, long, SA,

(15:03) so you have to sort of, you know, articulate it, you know, distill it. So I did all of that, just in time for the first media interview. 

(15:12) Jeremy Au: And what was it like? Because even when I knew you at that time, obviously you are quite comfortable with media and you are speaking various events and ceremonies.

(15:20) Obviously, I think it must be a bit different when you become a nominated member of Parliament. The type questions are different. 

(15:25) Anthea: Yeah. I mean, that's true. But I think I also felt very fortunate that because of the corporate experience where, you know, I had gone through things like media training because I was C-Suite, right?

(15:37) I'm a CEO, I was managing director. So then, because I was the spokesperson, um, and all that, so I got those training, um, which came in handy for sure. Um, and also understanding, you know, what, to say, and not to say in terms of like, how do you bridge, how do you, you know, have key messages when you're being interviewed.

(15:58) All that came through for me, (16:00) um, helps that also I, I enjoy sort of writing and comms and all that, so that's been helpful. Uh, but still, yeah, it's very different because I'm going into a role that up to that point there wasn't anything to tell you what a nominated member of Parliament is other than you know, what is written in Constitution and what is on the Parliament website? Yeah. Which is also very sort of like very official. It doesn't tell you the experience. It tells you what it is, but it doesn't tell you the experience. Right. Uh, it also is a big reason why I ended up after I stepped down. 

(16:31) Jeremy Au: Yeah.

(16:31) Anthea: Um, putting that book together. Yeah. What's the book called? "The Nominated Member of Parliament Scheme: Unelected Voices Still Necessary in Parliament." And so that was published in, um, September 2022, 2 years after I stepped down. Uh, and that was really to capture. 

(16:50) Jeremy Au: Right. 

(16:50) Anthea: Experiences. Right.

(16:52) Not sort of like academic papers, right? Uh, or commentaries. Yeah. Um, but actually experiences of the individual (17:00) NMP. So it's, um, made up of assays of 20 NMPs. and there's at least one NMP of every Parliament session up to that point. Right. Which was eight parliament sessions. 

(17:11) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(17:11) Anthea: since we had the NMP scheme, which was introduced in, 1990.

(17:15) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. 

(17:16) Anthea: Um, and so, yeah, because of that, you know, there was a bit of the apprehension, you don't know what is the role that you just got appointed for, which you thought you would never get. Right. and it all happened within a couple of hours that first day in parliament. Well, first we have a appointment ceremony because we are an appointed role.

(17:34) So we had an appointment ceremony with the president, then was President Halima. Um, and then our first sitting was. maybe two weeks after, I think. and that, first sitting would always be a swearing in, ceremony of the enemies. Um, so that was that. Um, we were not expected necessarily to participate.

(17:56) Hmm. 

(17:57) Jeremy Au: It 

(17:57) Anthea: was too late anyway, because you, there's a (18:00) sort of a cutoff time for, um, expressing your intent to either speak for the bill or to, uh, follow your questions. 

(18:07) Jeremy Au: Right. 

(18:08) Anthea: So first day of NMP was quite chiller because you just kind of swearing in and then you kind of where you will be sitting, which is all very, um, very interesting.

(18:17) It's like, you know, starting a new role, going to a, new space. Right. meeting all the NMPS for the first time. 

(18:23) Jeremy Au: Right. 

(18:24) Anthea: Um, but before that we did also have lunch with the speaker, Dan. that was the only time we had a bit of orientation from him. 

(18:31) Jeremy Au: Right. 

(18:32) Anthea: again, not from Nmps.

(18:34) Jeremy Au: Right, 

(18:34) Anthea: right. So it is from sort of the speaker telling us. 

(18:37) Jeremy Au: that 

(18:37) Anthea: in the onboarding Right. In the orientation, we actually also ask former NMPS to come 

(18:42) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(18:42) Anthea: Um, share a bit of their experience, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is what I did actually.

(18:46) I actually then together with other NMPs, we then organized a launch, 

(18:51) Jeremy Au: right. 

(18:51) Anthea: the latest, um, batch. Right. We ask. Um, for lunch and then they came and then a few of us came and then ti can ask this (19:00) question that time. 

(19:00) Jeremy Au: Yeah, exactly. And so what was that first day like? you know, orientation, swearing in so, so forth.

(19:05) But you know, the first time I spoke you mean? Yeah. Well it's interesting 'cause just the first day you walk into the Parliament as the responsible person. And my head, you know, I don't know. Does it feel like, I don't know, first day of school?

(19:16) Like where do you sit? who's friendly? Who doesn't like you? Yes. 

(19:20) Anthea: Yes. so all of the sentiments of, um, you know, the first day of school or the first day of work, I definitely felt all of that. Right. Which means it's actually a mixed bag of excitement.

(19:31) Maybe even acceleration, right? Because for me, that was the first time in chamber, you know, and then you're gonna be told where you're sitting, who you're gonna be sitting with. Yeah. um, but also apprehension. Right. Like, wow, you know, you go in, this is the August chamber and you know, it can be a little bit sort of like, wow, it's got this sense of grand deal.

(19:53) It is the highest hall of the land. So it's very similar to that. You know, a mixed bag. (20:00) you're holding equal part of, acceleration, excitement as well as apprehension. and also imposter syndrome. Yeah. Especially for me, I just thought they will not select me because I thought I did poorly in the interview.

(20:12) Right. and so I thought, oh wow. am I gonna be, able to do this and all that? Yeah. but at the same time thinking, wow, that's so exciting. I can talk about mental health 

(20:20) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(20:21) Anthea: Now and all that. You know, the reason why I said yes was to say, Hey, need to bring up all of these things that I found whether for women, for people from the disability community, 

(20:30) For mental health. Now I can actually. So it's just like such a mixed bag. Yeah. But so amazing. 

(20:37) Jeremy Au: And I think it was interesting 'cause you differentiated between the first day versus the first time speaking. Yes. Different. And I think, you know, me and other people, like, you know, I still sometimes have a fear of public speaking, you know, obviously, you know, practice public speaker as well.

(20:48) Right, right. Always before that I always had to like, you know, center cell, the breath work. And I can't even imagine doing that in parliament that's like, this is so scary. 

(20:56) Anthea: it's like completely filled. And at first day I (21:00) spoke, um. In front of me was the cabinet.

(21:03) Right. And I understand there's a little bit of that, uh, that practice, 

(21:06) Jeremy Au: right? 

(21:07) Anthea: That the first, time you speak, especially whether it's at the NMP or maybe as an NMP, I don't know. But I was told, that the first time you speak, by and large, the cabinet, the front benches wanna be there.

(21:18) Yeah. to lend you moral support, which I thought was really Nice. And it's true. But it's also, in other words, it exacerbates your nasty. Everyone look at me, just literally when I stood out where I was sitting, when I go to the restroom, I'm literally phasing. the Prime Minister was flanked by his senior minister Hin and Thaman.

(21:36) Yeah. And the other ministers and because of the way you speak, you go straight up the roster. in front of them. Right. So that was that. and also I chose my first bill to speak on, the Employment amendment bill. And this was in November, 2018.

(21:52) And I knew I wanted to talk about mental health. 

(21:55) Jeremy Au: Right. 

(21:56) Anthea: And I clearly remember that I wanted to raise the (22:00) issue of how are still asking for mental health history of a job applicant. It is such an, acute practice.

(22:08) But secondly, it also, um, it trenches the stigma of mental health at the workplace. right. Um, and it's therefore very discriminatory, as a practice. So I remember talking about that, but before that, I was a ball of nerve because I knew, as I was preparing for the speech. You talk about centering, I knew I was gonna center, but I thought, why am I not introducing given how much of a yogi?

(22:34) And by then I was, I still am, you know, I'm a very dedicated meditation practitioner. Yeah. It changed my life, right. Of what I've gone through and I know how important it is to be present as leaders. And where would it be more important to be present than the chamber, right. Because everything we do in that chamber affect everyone in Singapore.

(22:55) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. 

(22:55) Anthea: So I actually started my first speech asking for permission from the entire (23:00) house in chamber. To take three deep breaths with me. 

(23:04) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. 

(23:04) Anthea: Only three. 

(23:05) Jeremy Au: Deep breaths. Okay. There we go. 

(23:06) Anthea: Breath. Yeah. Also, basically it was a mindful, yeah, yeah.

(23:09) Breathing practice. I must say was a ball of nerves knowing that I was kind of, you know, doing something that's not quite, um, uh, by the standing order, how you speak and what you do. 

(23:21) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. 

(23:21) Anthea: So I did ask for permission from the speaker asking for his indulgence, asking for this, and actually saying why.

(23:27) I think it's important I firmly believe that as leaders and what we do here, um, you know. Being, just to bring that attention, having that presence is so important. And I was so proud of it. Apparently I was the first one who ever did that in part of, I remember that actually in the history. Oh.

(23:43) Jeremy Au: 'cause he came out, he did that. And everyone was like, A lot of people are like, what the what? But you know, I know, and I was 

(23:49) Anthea: absolutely a weirdo, but I can tell you a personal experience. I cannot tell you how moved, And how powerful and how compelling it was for a chamber, for a (24:00) place where it's all about debating, it's all about speaking. It's all about having attention, um, you know, challenging. Um, just words and words and words. And for that seconds, all you heard was silence and breathing. 

(24:16) Jeremy Au: Mm.

(24:16) Anthea: I just thought that was so powerful. You know, and I must say that, after my speech, the whole time the Prime Minister the two I remember were just, smiling at me. 

(24:27) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. 

(24:28) Anthea: You know, first the breathing and ask them all to close their eyes.

(24:32) And when they open their eyes, I thank them. For their confidence and their trust and for their indulgence. And I saw the smile Of the senior ministers and the prime minister. And then after I finished the speech, they all gave me the thumbs on the 

(24:45) Jeremy Au: unrest. 

(24:46) Anthea: And so let's talk about that. 

(24:47) Jeremy Au: for sure. That's quite a beautiful memory. Yes. And I'm kind of curious because, you know, you mentioned that the chambers also really for debate, for speaking up, right? And, you know, part of it's like, what's the point?

(24:56) You know? Mm-hmm. You know what I mean by that is like a lot of people (25:00) feel like, hey, you know, if you speak up 

(25:01) Anthea: Yeah. 

(25:02) Jeremy Au: It's worthless because decisions are made. Yeah. Because it's a super majority. So what's the value of you speaking up? Right? Like, you know, like Sure.

(25:09) Employers will ask about mental history, boo. Yeah. No, it's true. Should not do that. True, true, true. But so talk about that. Like 

(25:16) Anthea: yeah. What is the value of debate? No, it's a great question and it's very important, especially the time that we are in now where elections coming, right?

(25:24) and voters and citizens, um, may ask that question. And if they're not, I hope, you know, this discussion will make them think 

(25:30) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(25:31) Anthea: More deeply about, you know, who are you choosing? they're called members of Parliament because they have a role to play in Parliament. And so what is Parliament?

(25:38) Right? Parliament is really doing three things. It is actually. Um, doing law making. Mm-hmm. Right. This is where laws are made. Uh, and to your point earlier, what is the point? Because it's a super majority parliament, uh, all bills that are, tabled will be passed. 

(25:52) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. 

(25:53) Anthea: Right? Uh, so then what's the point of debating, and I'll come to that, but the second function of parliament is actually holding the government to account.

(25:59) Jeremy Au: (26:00) Mm-hmm. 

(26:00) Anthea: Uh, and it's literally returned on the Parliament website. Critical inquiry, right. Holding government to account of policies and actions is what Parliament's supposed to do. That's why that is the parliamentary questions and all that, that's the process to, let mps do that.

(26:15) The bills will be where we are doing law making, and then the parliamentary questions are for us to hold the government to account by asking questions. And the third is, financial scrutiny. The financial oversight, which is budget and COS. So actually you're choosing members of Parliament to be able to do all three things, 

(26:31) So coming back to your question, what's the point of that? If it's super now in law making, it's very important that we make sure, even though every bill will be passed, by actually contributing to your views and perspective, particularly bring the voices of your constituents to the house.

(26:47) In debating on a certain bill, you are actually, making sure the bill in implementation, the bill can be the law, the way is implemented. it's still being worked out after the bill has been (27:00) passed as law. So by contributing to where you are making sure that implementation is equitable, it's effective.

(27:07) And still, so it's not lost. 

(27:08) Jeremy Au: Of 

(27:09) Anthea: course, in a non super majority parliament, laws may not get passed. 

(27:13) Jeremy Au: Correct. 

(27:13) Anthea: But in our case, there's still value because can still be tweaked, uh, adapted, um, becoming more inclusive and you can still contribute to policy makers in implementing those bills and laws.

(27:26) Right. You know, more effectively. Right, right. by, contributing to it. At the same time, every bill gives mps the opportunity raise issues related to the bill, but also to highlight issues, for. The media for the people to think about. So what do I mean by that? 

(27:42) Every bill, I mean, I'm not gonna change the employment bill that I spoke up on. 

(27:47) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(27:47) Anthea: I won't. But interestingly, actually, two, three years later, there was actually a change to the policy in asking for mental health history deemed a discriminatory practice. 

(27:58) Jeremy Au: Right. 

(27:58) Anthea: Right. So it (28:00) can, but it won't happen immediately.

(28:02) So what are you speaking to actually, when NMPS speak up, you're speaking the people and the media. 

(28:08) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(28:08) Anthea: you use every bill as an opportunity to do that, to raise issues of national interests, but representing the voices of the people you represent. So that there's still value For sure.

(28:20) On top of that, every speech made is in hanad. So it is very important as part of our parliamentary history, our political history, but also for future parliamentary references. 

(28:31) Jeremy Au: Mm. 

(28:31) Anthea: Right. That this has been discussed and yet the, the government of the day said this or did not. Do you know?

(28:36) Yeah. So there's still that value there. holding the government to account very important parliamentary questions should not be treated as just like, you know, asking questions. Especially important because we don't have freedom of Information Act in Singapore. 

(28:48) Jeremy Au: Mm. 

(28:49) Anthea: Right. So very important asking for information so that information is given, data is given, that actually helps, the social sector for the social service agencies to know this (29:00) information to better plan services.

(29:02) Jeremy Au: Mm. 

(29:02) Anthea: You know, for you to know some of this data and all that, in terms of, the segments of population and the income and all of that for you to also plan your business, more effectively. you need to challenge the government if there's certain issues in governance, issues in, equity. whether it is, with opposition or with, communities and minority groups that are being left out, you need to challenge that.

(29:24) Jeremy Au: Mm. 

(29:24) Anthea: Um, and I think Albert, Kaul mentioned this, right? That a democracy, it's not about making good laws, but to make sure we stop bad laws. It's only in democracy that you can have different voices. So different voices will bring up things that tell you that, Hey, this group has been completely left out or ignored.

(29:42) and then yeah, like, I mean, the budget is the budget. But budget for NMP, we don't get to vote. 

(29:46) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(29:47) Anthea: We don't vote because we don't have the people's mandate. But we can, challenge the bill. We can debate on Bill, we can ask parliamentary questions. Um, we can also vote on the bill if there's a call for that.

(29:57) Um, but like I said, it's, that's super majority, so (30:00) yeah. 

(30:00) Jeremy Au: Gotcha. so there's, you know, interesting because you're starting to talk a little bit about elections. The elections, but also I think talking about the benefits of NMP scheme, which is the functional representation Yes. And voicing our bills, but also there's criticism of the scheme, right?

(30:13) Yes. Um, so I think, the workers party said that is like, uh, that weed, yeah. Right. Because these members of parliament don't have, um, a connection to actual voters on the ground. Mm-hmm. Uh, I think, what are the other criticisms you've heard? 

(30:25) Anthea: I think, Chenbo, was against this. In fact, he actually defied the party weep, when the bill was, table in 1990.

(30:32) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(30:32) Anthea: Um, and actually voted against the NMP scheme. Yeah. Um, if you read the Hanard, um, for that particular debate, uh, for the NMP bill, it's fascinating. It's riveting actually for me. Yeah. Uh, and I did a lot of research, um, on that when I was doing the book. Right. And basically a lot of back benches from the PP side were very against it.

(30:52) Mm-hmm. And they make very good arguments against it. And of them even said like, you're starting this NMP scheme and if you listen to us back (31:00) benches, then are already providing all the alternative voices, but you're not actually listening to us, which is really interesting to see. Basically own cell, you know, fighting with own cell line, that sense, right?

(31:09) Mm-hmm. but really a very, you know, good, um, uh, debate that went on, uh, and talked about how, um, mps that come through the back door because they're not coming through, um, you know, being on the ground and with the, the residents and not being, obviously having the mandate of the people.

(31:25) and also that they were bringing their hobby horses, you know, to parliament and not actually looking at sort of the overall, welfare of the constituents and all of that. Um, and so you are right. And also actually, as we are speaking, uh, we are also hot on the heels of just, uh, the latest, um, the recent controversy of the two NMPs, uh, resigning before the term finish.

(31:46) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. 

(31:47) Anthea: So NMP already as a scheme has its fair share of criticism being undemocratic. Um, the selection process being clearly skewed towards their incumbent party because the special select committee is, (32:00) formed in proportion to the representation. And therefore, obviously, you know, the special committee is, majority made up of, PAP, representatives.

(32:09) Uh, and for my time it was just one. So Sylvia was the representative, from the workers party. Then was all workers party only during my time as opposition, and the rest were from ministers, but also Nmps from incumbent party. Mm-hmm. Um, but I think now with the two NMPS resigning 

(32:29) Jeremy Au: mm-hmm.

(32:29) Anthea: I think it has really dragged the scheme through the mud, in my view. And so I've been actually very openly, upset and also very vocal about what this latest, occurrence has done to the scheme that was already shaky, already needed so much more strengthening.

(32:45) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. I mean, I 

(32:46) Anthea: think there's still a lot of merits to the scheme and I'll come to that, but there are latest. Um, two NMPS resigning before they finish a term. And they both have said that. Well, one of them has been already announced as a candidate for one of the GRCs. Uh, but the (33:00) other openly said he stepped down to join a party, but he has just recently said, uh, he won't be running this time round.

(33:06) Um, due to the public feedback. Right? Mm. Um, why is it bad? It just means that, um, how could they have, you know, still served their, um, their role as a um, parliamentarian. 

(33:18) Jeremy Au: Mm. 

(33:18) Anthea: one day and the next day they quit to join the party. 

(33:22) Jeremy Au: Mm, 

(33:22) Anthea: It just, um, you know, calls to question that, um, that they may have.

(33:29) Not been noNMPartisan. Right. Because you don't just turn noNMPartisan overnight. and there had to be also a discussion and a dialogue 

(33:36) Jeremy Au: before 

(33:36) Anthea: they were comfortable enough to say, I'm gonna create this midterm because I'm gonna join, uh, this party. So what it basically makes an NMP scheme become is that it's a talent pipeline for political parties.

(33:49) Jeremy Au: Mm. 

(33:49) Anthea: Then how is that serving the people? It is a constitutionally and strong public institution. 

(33:55) Jeremy Au: Mm. 

(33:55) Anthea: To serve Singapore in a way where nine members of parliament (34:00) are appointed by the president of the country. 

(34:02) Jeremy Au: Mm. 

(34:02) Anthea: To represent Singaporeans at large. 

(34:07) Jeremy Au: Right. 

(34:07) Anthea: In issues that are overarching the national interest of Singapore.

(34:11) Jeremy Au: Right. 

(34:12) Anthea: Right. Um, and if they want to join political parties Let them finish the term. Right. Uh, and so that it allows for the scheme to stay in integrity, but also, um, for this scheme not to be seen as a talent pipeline while the NMPS are still fulfilling the non-partisan duties for Singaporeans.

(34:36) Jeremy Au: Right. so it sounds like two issues that you're talking about, separate. One is about the or non-party nature of the NMP scheme. Yes. Versus running for office, as a political candidate. And I think you're saying that should have more space in between at minimum.

(34:50) Right. and then obviously the other part that you're also talking about a little bit is whether the. scheme should be seen as a talent pool. for all political parties. 

(34:59) Anthea: (35:00) Yeah. 

(35:00) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(35:00) Anthea: Yeah. But I feel like if this is a public institution, you wanna keep it in integrity as the institutionalized block Of independence in parliament. and, that also explains why to date, there haven't been any, maybe say for one ran as an independent 

(35:19) Jeremy Au: Mm. 

(35:19) Anthea: Right. But you have not seen any NMP join a political party, even if there was a cooling off period. None of them had. Join, um, yeah. Any of the political parties. that's actually less of an issue. To have the NMP scheme become a talent pipeline for political. parties, I think we need to talk about that as a country. Is that what we want? and if it is, then say it out loud This actually has become that, then we need to take it the constitution, 

(35:48) Make it an act of parliament. And parliament can decide if this particular parliament term, which it used to be like that, 

(35:55) Jeremy Au: do 

(35:55) Anthea: you still want nmps, right? 

(35:57) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. 

(35:58) Anthea: And if, because we're starting to have (36:00) talent attraction issues for all political parties and you want to, you know, then let's be honest about it discuss it.

(36:07) Um, the other thing I think also it's important to discuss, know, Jeremy, it's that, um, we actually still think that with what we are seeing in majoritarian democracies around the world where two party systems are so divisive, 

(36:21) Jeremy Au: mm, 

(36:21) Anthea: and so polarized. And then when you have two party system and using the recent US election.

(36:27) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. 

(36:27) Anthea: Right. To be an independent, it's impossible. You will be co-opted by one of them. Because you're seen as diluting. 

(36:33) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. 

(36:34) Anthea: You know, uh, yeah. One of the parties land, right? Mm-hmm. Um, where else we already have this uniquely Singaporean parliamentary innovation where we actually have an institutionalized.

(36:45) Jeremy Au: Hmm. 

(36:46) Anthea: Of course the NMP scheme has been dragged through the mud with this thing because it has completely eroded at public trust. 

(36:51) Jeremy Au: Mm. In the 

(36:52) Anthea: scheme. 

(36:53) Jeremy Au: Mm. Right. 

(36:53) Anthea: I think it's very unfair because future NMPS coming on would all now be seen through the lens of, oh, are (37:00) you gonna still say 

(37:01) Jeremy Au: Yeah, exactly. 

(37:01) Anthea: Which is very, very sad because, you know, it's not also gonna be fair to those who would step forward, especially if they truly wanna be non-partisan and they don't wanna be. You know, affiliated with any sort of, uh, party line because they don't agree with all of the party lines, right?

(37:16) I mean, either party line or party ideologies. Um, but more importantly, I think just looking at parliamentary systems around the world, if we continue to be first the post and we continue to be majoritarian system we now see what's going on with two party system, which we seem to also be hating towards that, then do we really wanna give up an institutionalized independent block we have that could create that three legged system for parliament could continue to keep in check that they don't become this two party system that's just like getting at each other and nothing gets done.

(37:48) You know, whereas there's a, there's a institutionalized block that can. Continue to check on this partisan ills of two party system. I don't know. I think this is a conversation that (38:00) clearly Singaporeans, um, we need to have as a society. 

(38:04) Jeremy Au: I think it's interesting because, you know, we're talking about different stakeholders, right?

(38:07) Yeah. Because obviously from a party perspective, is a group of people Who have been trained in parliament. They've got intro orientation, they know how to do speeches. everybody knows their character now. And their speaking record. So they're almost like a pre-vetted, soft trained group of candidates, like interns.

(38:25) They're like, Hey, maybe you should get a returning offer, you know, to give them the chance to become a member of parliament, which is all you gotta do is add on the grassroots work of. representing the citizens. Absolutely. 

(38:35) Anthea: Absolutely. So it's not something that we, can just say, okay, don't do that.

(38:39) Yeah. I'm not saying that a cooling off period. Like I said, you know, and you are right. I mean, they clearly have gone through the system. they have the experience. I mean, the n MP have been chosen. you would see that most of them, because in the NMP scheme it says, this, would be members, distinguished members of, society.

(38:57) Right? so I would say most would be quite (39:00) senior whatever they're doing. you know, and all that. so they can bring quite a lot of experience, maybe even resources they step down as NMPs, have a cooling off period. That's why I say have a discussion about what is the right thing to do by the scheme.

(39:13) right. And by the NMPS themselves, right. This time round, it was just. I think it clearly also rattle a lot of us former NMPs. Like, know, why, why, why can't let you know, just go for the next, cycle. 

(39:29) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(39:29) Anthea: Right. I mean, let them finish the term, go for the next cycle. But it actually to my mind, also called up maybe, um, other questions that need to be asked because both of them are minority candidates.

(39:41) Right. So, um, obviously then it also calls to a larger question of we need to also review our GRC system? 

(39:49) Jeremy Au: Mm. 

(39:49) Anthea: Is it because that we need, you know, uh, minority candidates and you know, that actually that is a, uh, talent attraction issue with minority candidates to make up for the (40:00) GRC requirements?

(40:01) 

(40:01) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. 

(40:02) Anthea: is GRC system still relevant, 

(40:05) Jeremy Au: right? 

(40:05) Anthea: we need to reduce the number substantially, you know, so that we don't run into this problem that. It's almost as if you are actually sacrificing one public institution to sustain another.

(40:16) Jeremy Au: Hmm. 

(40:16) Anthea: This is no question we need to ask. 

(40:18) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(40:18) Anthea: Which is also in the article that literally just came out before I came to your place for this podcast class. That I've actually pan in, um, rise Media. 

(40:25) Jeremy Au: Yeah. What's the title of the Rice Media article? 

(40:28) Anthea: Um, I dunno what they finally end up with in terms of the headline.

(40:30) 'cause you know, the editor would actually do the Yeah, yeah. But I, I can't remember. But it's definitely, uh, out in rice media, uh, it is a commentary that I panned 

(40:40) Jeremy Au: Right, 

(40:40) Anthea: uh, for us to ask these questions about. not even also of the grc system, but also what is the parliament that we need for Singapore in the world that we are obviously hating into.

(40:54) Right. Yeah. The future is no longer what it has been in the last 60 years, and (41:00) therefore parliamentary system that has served us well. Do we not need to review? Right. Do we need not to, to have discussion? We are very good with coming up with something that's uniquely Singapore, just like the NMP scheme.

(41:13) Just like the NCNMP. Just like the GRC. Mm-hmm. do we need to look at majoritarian, democracy, the first pass the seeing what's going on in the mature democracies around the world? Do we need to bring in some element of proportional representation?

(41:26) Because I saw that even with opposition parties in the majoritarian democracy, they will still stay in majority interests and dominant narratives. and when I was in Parliament, none of the opposition members raised migrant worker issues because it won't get them votes. It might even.

(41:43) Alienate them actually, it might actually have a political cause for them, you know? Um, because the citizens will, why are you talking about issues for migrant workers when you're supposed to represent only citizens? Right. And if you are, you know, a political party, you are electoral, uh, (42:00) candidate, you need to get votes.

(42:01) Jeremy Au: Right. Makes sense. 

(42:02) Anthea: Yeah. So, that's merit for us to think about what is the parliamentary system that will best, serve us for the next 60 years. 

(42:09) Jeremy Au: I want to kind of like ask also a quick question is like, you know, your term as MP was also during the pandemic as well? 

(42:15) Anthea: Yes. 

(42:15) Jeremy Au: I think that was a crazy time.

(42:17) Anthea: Yeah. 

(42:17) Jeremy Au: So I was just kind of curious, what was your experience like? That's one, but two also, I have to ask because that was also the first and only time I think the reserves have ever been unlocked around this. 

(42:25) Anthea: Um, was it No, we didn't tap into it, but we asked for permission in the 

(42:31) Asian financial crisis. Oh, okay. Um, I don't think we did in global financial crisis, but I think we definitely did in the financial crisis. Yeah. So, 

(42:39) Jeremy Au: yeah. So me, I wanna hear what was the experience in the pandemic time period? 

(42:42) Anthea: Yeah. It was actually really quite an experience.

(42:45) I think some parts are quite harrowing. Uh, and I would never forget how, because it was locked down, Parliament was still going on when I went to Parliament, the roads were completely empty. Oh boy. Right. this is the road of Northbridge Road and turning (43:00) into, parliament now talking about it it's not that long ago, but it seemed like a whole lifetime ago. the sense of. Dread was palpable. Right. of course that was the first time, we had four budgets debated, four budgets, sessions and sittings 

(43:17) In parliament, in the space of just two months. 

(43:20) Jeremy Au: Right. 

(43:20) Anthea: if I remember the number correctly, I think it was a total a hundred billion dollars, which is why we need to tap into the reserves and, the president's approval was needed. Having said that, I'm glad to say that as we know from recent news, the government has actually, recorded surpluses.

(43:35) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. 

(43:36) Anthea: over the last year. 

(43:37) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(43:37) Anthea: Right. So, um, you know. And take the reserves as we said we needed 

(43:42) Jeremy Au: mm-hmm. In the 

(43:42) Anthea: four budgets that we debated for. 

(43:44) Jeremy Au: Right. 

(43:45) Anthea: Um, the last I heard was that we uh, only, went as far as of it.

(43:50) 

(43:50) Jeremy Au: But 

(43:50) Anthea: then again, did well enough, um, to not have to, and plus, like I said, we have all these surpluses, so I'm assuming that surpluses will go back. 

(43:58) Jeremy Au: Mm. 

(43:59) Anthea: to the (44:00) reserves that we took out. We didn't take out the whole a hundred I thought it was either 20 or 40% that we still had to 

(44:06) Jeremy Au: into.

(44:07) Anthea: yeah. Um, just a lot of fast moving. I thought it was amazing of coming together. certainly saw a lot of solidarity, even between the opposition party and the incumbent. not to say there still, other things that were challenging that were being put forth, I think there was, a sense of coming together.

(44:25) there was clearly quite a bit of innovation. I remember we were also talking about the, chief, technology officer as a shared service to just very quickly get the SMEs to ramp up their digitalization effort, because everything was going online, it's really to say that in times of crisis, you can bring a lot of ideas to the fore creativity, but it also speaks of.

(44:49) The people In terms of the solidarity, the coming together. 

(44:53) Jeremy Au: Right. 

(44:53) Anthea: Uh, so we definitely had that. Um, not to say that, you know, there were no, uh, debates and all that, but I think that (45:00) experience shows that, we can together. 

(45:02) Jeremy Au: Mm-hmm. 

(45:03) Anthea: You know, we don't have to be petty when we think about the greater good of the people and the country.

(45:09) I have a lot of, hope and trust that. We will come together even when we have opposing ideologies I've seen that because I've been on parliamentary, exchange with other parliaments, and there were opposition members.

(45:21) the one that I've been to, I was with Preterm, and I thought it was really wonderful. Preterm said that, he goes on these trips, and I'm assuming it's the same for the other opposition, members of Parliament, he's team Singapore. 

(45:34) Jeremy Au: Mm. Right. 

(45:35) Anthea: He's part of, uh, team Singapore. 

(45:37) Jeremy Au: Mm. 

(45:37) Anthea: and he's not to show that we are actually, um, fractured, 

(45:43) Jeremy Au: you know, 

(45:44) Anthea: as a team, 

(45:45) Jeremy Au: as 

(45:45) Anthea: a parliament, not at all.

(45:46) Jeremy Au: Right. 

(45:47) Anthea: Right. you just add value in a different way. But it is actually still for the good of Singapore. And when he said that, um, in the exchange, I knew that I hope we continue to have. Such, opposition (46:00) parties and members of Parliament, which I wanna believe we do.

(46:02) Jeremy Au: And if we 

(46:03) Anthea: don't, then citizens, we must be smart enough not to vote them in. But if they are type of opposition, uh, members of parliament, we should give them a chance because diversity in Parliament, with any other place, is always gonna be good, um, for creativity, for inclusion, for equity, and ultimately it's gonna be better for Singapore.

(46:23) Jeremy Au: Right. And speaking about adding value in different ways, you yourself have had a career after NMP phase as well. So could you share a little bit more about what you're doing then? 

(46:34) Anthea: Yeah. Um, well, actually, really that, I just go back to what I was doing before I became an NMP because I quit the corporate sector and I still haven't gone back there.

(46:43) And I have no intention of going back there despite some hunters asking me to go back to being a CEO. Yeah, never seen, never. Um, but I'm certainly open to, um, contributing on commercial boards and all that. but essentially, I've just gone back to what I was doing.

(46:56) I mean, have to say the two years really was a full-time job. you know, (47:00) Singapore is also unique where we part-time, mps doing really full-time job and I didn't even have to walk, the ground, right? In the sense that I don't have constituency duties, right? And not the town council duties as well.

(47:12) so really, you know, if you wanna truly participate and speak up every sitting, it is a full-time job. And so I went back to essentially what I was doing and before I became an NMP that year. I also initiated, a new initiative, called What Well Leaders, where, it started as an informal network, but it's now, A IPC, right?

(47:32) It's a charity It's actually bringing CEOs together to stop, thinking of workplace wellbeing or the wellbeing of your people. as a HR responsibility, it is not. 

(47:42) Jeremy Au: Mm, right? 

(47:42) Anthea: it is actually, the responsibility of every leader and especially the CEO it is an organizational wellbeing that you need to aspire towards and make that happen.

(47:52) I think enough study and we've just, finished a study with NUS to show that organizational wellbeing contributes (48:00) directly to organizational performance. the time today where growth is struggle, where there's so many macro, challenges coming our way. we really cannot think of, workplace wellbeing and employee wellbeing as secondary.

(48:17) very, central to performance. It's very central to, why we lead in the first place we lead because we are leading humans and people and therefore their wellbeing must be first principle. and so that's what we are trying to do at what well lead is.

(48:35) and so we have about 80 corporate members we do it as a membership base. because the membership fee, which is all of 5,000 a year, is to contribute to the full-time, charity team, the secretary team, to continue to push this, 

(48:49) Jeremy Au: right, 

(48:50) Anthea: to my mind as a leadership movement, right?

(48:52) Uh, very important today, especially since we're seeing leadership crisis around the world. Um, we want to make sure we keep front and (49:00) center that as leaders. our responsibility is always our people. 

(49:05) Jeremy Au: Mm. 

(49:05) Anthea: it's through our people that we then are able to drive the organizations or the collective towards the goals that we are here to be.

(49:14) And if you are a CEO or business, yeah, that is your profitability, but that profitability comes because of the way you look after your people, right? And you take care of the people. same for any other, actually, even for political leaders. Um, you need to have the wellbeing of, you know, your people, uh, front and center, right?

(49:35) Mm-hmm. Um, in fulfilling your role as member of Parliament, as a prime minister, as a minister of, you know, the different organizations and, and I think to that point, it's why I think this. This, um, charity, uh, well leaders, um, is really more than just getting leaders to take care of mental health the people.

(49:55) I hope it really drives, um, this whole movement of, (50:00) um, set human centered 

(50:01) Jeremy Au: Yeah. I understand your team has been doing some research on, you know, the Venn diagram between CEO performance and company and employee wellness. Could you share me some high level takeaway?

(50:12) Anthea: yeah. So we literally just, the study with, NUS. As I said, we're calling it Well Leaders Impact Measure. and the idea is to give, boards, CEOs, stakeholders and even policy makers, you know, science back, data and, research on what are the relationships and the interdependencies of behaviors and drivers to organizational, culture processes, and therefore the change needed there impacting employee wellbeing to organizational performance.

(50:41) it's a very complex study. It's a first of its kind. often it's binary study, right? You just look at one factor. How does it affect the other factor? So what we are trying to show here, in fact, the study actually, looks at over 200 factors, And then from it, it found that one of the (51:00) most, predictor, is actually leaders wellbeing. That means the personal health and wellbeing of leaders. And that has the highest impact. I won't share too much because we are announcing the findings, with the well leaders, awards, on the 24th of April. I think that might, come after this episode goes out live.

(51:19) but it shows that leaders wellbeing, actually contributes to organizational performance, over all the other factors that we think. would contribute to performance like, management and stuff like that. And then in organizational wellbeing, again, leaders' wellbeing actually is more effective in contributing to employee wellbeing than stress management training, yoga training.

(51:44) or even actually, uh, EAP, which is employee assistance, um, programs. what leaders are rallying cry, is be well to lead well, right? Really wanting to bring the attention back to, take care of yourself, you know, before you can (52:00) take good care of others and lead the organization to success.

(52:04) Uh, is the same sort of notion as put on your oxygen mask first before you put on the oxygen mask for others. Yeah. And so we really want leaders to start, um, making the change for themselves. I mean, it's going back to the Gandhi, um, quote, right. Be the change you wanna see in others. So if you want to see, um, better wellbeing in your people, you have to start with yourself because you role model that.

(52:28) And you also change the culture when you do that for yourself, 

(52:31) Jeremy Au: right? 

(52:32) Anthea: Yeah. And then that will help mental health will allow your people to know they can step forward. 

(52:37) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(52:38) Anthea: to share their challenges. And you and I know this, um, psychological safety is so important to get the best creativity, the best ideas from your people.

(52:48) And that's why it directly impacts your performance the team as well as the organization. 

(52:55) Jeremy Au: Well, thank you so much for sharing. I totally agree with you. If you have a competent leader, you have a competent (53:00) organization. 

(53:00) Yes. And if you have a happy leader, you have a happy organization. And if you have an unhappy or stressed out, burned out leader, then you're gonna have a burden 

(53:07) Anthea: But imagine the projection, right? The transference, right? Yeah, exactly.

(53:09) The leader on the team. 

(53:10) Jeremy Au: Yeah. So I really love what you said about. leaders need to take care of themselves first. able to lead well. Yeah, exactly. on that note, summarize the two big takeaways I got from conversation. first of all, thanks so much for sharing about your own, personal experience of being selected a nominated member of Parliament.

(53:23) What selection criteria was like what your first year like, what your first speech was, like your first three deep breaths whole parliament. really lovely story about, I kind of like an insider, but also from a personal perspective. So thank you so much for that.

(53:36) Secondly, thanks so much for sharing about, what you think are the criticisms, and the benefits of the NMP scheme as a program in terms of is it non-partisan some of the challenges facing today, that are being exposed, whether it's supposed to be a talent pool. or is it supposed to be a neutral third party voice for key issues that are not being. Easily, raised by, the normal members of Parliament 

(53:59) Anthea: Love that book. 

(53:59) Jeremy Au: (54:00) Um, and thanks so much for sharing about your own kind of like philosophy, right? Yeah. It just came up, not just in terms of the work, the research, but also I think throughout the entire conversation, I think.

(54:07) So, what a wonderful set of conversations and, if, uh, folks wanna hear a little bit about your own personal story about being a divorcee or having profession. Yeah. You can check out your earlier episode 

(54:16) Anthea: Yes.

(54:16) Jeremy Au: Audio only at times. Yes. Uh, check out that audio episode 

(54:19) Anthea: also, uh, I wrote a book. Yeah. Um, 50 Shades of Love. Which was my first book. 

(54:23) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(54:24) Anthea: Um, it's our print now. Um, but, you know, uh, let us know. Maybe we can actually reprint it, but also, uh, I think I've shared my personal stories as well.

(54:32) Yeah. Um, you know, and, and, and yeah. Check out the website. I have, uh, ong.com. 

(54:36) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(54:36) Anthea: thong com. Yeah. Um, so that would tell you a little bit more as well. 

(54:40) Jeremy Au: Well, thank you so much for sharing and, uh, see you next time. 

(54:43) Anthea: Thank you Jeremy, for having me. It's so nice to be back. Can't believe it's been half a decade.

(54:47) Jeremy Au: Yeah. 

(54:47) Anthea: Uh, and so much has changed, but you have not, and you know, this conversation is still as enjoyable, so thank you for having me.(55:00)